With frightening efficiency Griff, Ifan and Betsan (hello by the way, it’s always nice to have new readers) descended upon yesterday’s glib post about horse abuse and nationalism to make a few observations. Chief among these is the fact that the BBC appears to have become lazy and feckless and that ‘Cai Maes Sais’ is gibberish in any language, especially Welsh.
I find this slightly alarming as I’m not used to sensible discourse cropping up here, it’s supposed to be all about me, my latent narcissism, and the conflicting rubbish that I like to spout. Please try to remember that, people.
Obviously I don’t know about you, but I’ve been a little exasperated with the BBC and it’s penchant for dumbing-down for quite a while now, to discover that they no longer check their output properly is, well, it’s a little upsetting, like having the rug pulled out from under you and your head kicked-in.
That said, there’s a part of me that’s highly suspicious about receiving three startlingly similar comments made, as if by rote, and without any apparent consideration for those that have gone before. My apologies if that offends, but they are very similar, you can’t blame a chap for stroking his chin and going ‘Hmm’ now can you?
Still, as the commenteers point out (and you can find them here by the way), ‘Cai Maes Sais’ means nothing in Welsh, which is interesting and raises a few questions. Obviously I know absolutely no Welsh beyond ‘Mae fy hofrenfad yn llawn o lyswennod*’ so realistically it could be a diatribe about the state of the union for all I know, I’m inclined to believe Griff however as he translated, which was nice of him.
So, it doesn’t mean ‘English out’, which does make you wonder if it is indeed a Welsh Nationalist attack or just someone being a massive arse. I’m sure there is a distinction between the two.
Anyway, a few points about the comments. Firstly, I don’t understand why you all felt the need to slate the same translation service, granted it’s rubbish and Griff got there first (so this doesn’t really apply to you), but it just seems like you’ve an axe to grind or, potentially, that you’re the same unimaginative person. Please feel free to prove my suspicions false, it’s nothing personal, I just assume the worst.
That said, examples, yay!
Secondly, yes, I’d expect any self-respecting Welsh Nationalist to be able to read, write and speak Welsh otherwise what’s the point? However, as I’ve said previously, excessive nationalism isn’t exactly the realm of the enlightened. While it’s certainly possible that it’s a faked Welsh Nationalist attack, it’s also equally possible that it’s the work of some shaven-headed-tits who hate the English so much they’re able to overlook the fact they only speak our language. Either way, as Ifan pointed out, someone’s playing silly buggers.
Also, Griff, the owner injuring her own horse idea, no, just no.
Thirdly, and finally, unless I think of something else, I don’t really see how the story turns people against Welsh speakers, welsh Nationalists perhaps, but then the sort of person who will be turned against all Welsh Nationalists rather than the usual mental minority probably won’t grasp the argument anyway.
I can understand nationalism in a political context, self-rule and a chance to shape your own destiny is important, however it’s also needlessly divisive in our case. What, honestly, would be the point? Independence from the UK is a fine idea until you realise the economy wouldn’t support it, the situation’s much the same in Scotland, that’s without considering unemployment.
I’ve nothing against it mind you, if that’s what people want, but I often think it’s not so much about leaving the UK as it is about dragging control away from what is perceived as England. You know, despite the fact that we’re all the same country, the United Kingdom. At least, that’s what I’ve got on my passport; let me know if yours is any different.
I don’t know, perhaps I’m wrong, but in the UK talk of devolution always seems to smack of petulance over events that took place hundreds of years ago and didn’t affect any of us; it’s not like you hear me kicking off because Mercia’s no longer ruled from Tamworth is it? People should move on.
Protecting cultural identities is a different matter obviously; it’s something that I’m definitely in favour of, it wouldn’t do if we were all the same now would it? But nationalism, outside of the context of political independence, is something I’ve always thought of as being utterly pointless.
With regards to turning people against nationalists, particularly the sort active in the realms of graffiti, intimidation, anti-x attacks, excessive devotion to a nation and its interests, and the belief that one country is superior to all others, well, it’s hard to see how anyone could be for them, they’re idiots.
Ultimately though, attacking a horse = bad.
Graffiti gibberish = bad.
Intolerance and ignorance = bad.
That guy in the pub on Ynys Môn who refused to serve me a beer because I was English until my friends turned up and had a word in Welsh = Arsehole. It’s that sort of fuckwittery that angers people.
* My hovercraft is full of eels.
The reason why three people posted nearly identical stuff is probable because the topic is discussed at length on welsh language forum maes-e.com. The link to the translation website was found by a poster on that site (Cwlcymro). You being one of the few people to blog on the subject my guess is that the two others (who i don’t know) did the same as I did, used Google Blog Search to see who was talking about it and then post a rebuttal.
While I’m sure there are plenty of non-welsh speaking nationalists around, it still doesn’t fit. The owners of the horse was Welsh - why would a non-welsh speaking welshma think that another non-welsh speaker was not Welsh?
I just can’t work this one out. The only three theories I can think of are:
1. local person with a grudge against them wants to hurt them but disguises attack as racist attack to avoid detection
2. owner accidently/intentionall hurts her horse and tries to blame it on others (there’s a famous pub in south wales which burnt down 10 years ago covered in anti-english graffiti - turned out the landlord painted them himself as part of an insurance scam)
3. Someone wants to drum up hatred between welsh speakers and english speakers.
I nderstand your point about it being welsh nastionalists and not welsh speakers but if you know about welsh politics you’d understand why it hurts welsh speakers. Welsh politics play heavily on the language divide, and unfortunately stories like this undoubtadly fan those flames.
Griff has just beat me in responding, but I came here after posting about the same story o my blog, checking my stats, and seeing others had visited my blog after googling ‘Cai Maes Sais’ - ’tis how blogging works! I first heard of the story after reading maes-e.
The reason they all mention the service, is because it proves that whoever wrote the graffiti must have used a dodgdy on-line translator to (attempt) to work out what an anti-English slogan would be in Welsh.
The reason they and I feel the need to respond to it is because
1. We’re all Welsh speakers
2. I assume we’re probabaly all Welsh nationalists
(although to speak Welhs doesn’t automatically mean you’re a Welsh nationalist + you don’t have to speak Welsh to be a Welsh nationalist.
Any story that tarnishes a Welsh speaker or a Welsh nationalist reflects badly on all of us. Appart from firebombing holidayhomes in the late 80’s, Welsh nationalism has always been moderate and non-violent, and that’s how it should be. Maybe we’re a little bit tetchy, but it’s hard not to take it personally.
Welsh nationalism and the case for devolution/independence has very little coverage outside Wales, and I get the impression that it’s perceieved as being anti-English when all it is, is a group of people seeking control over their own destiny. The debate about whether an independent Wales would be economically viable is another argument.
Your comment:
Thirdly, and finally, unless I think of something else, I don’t really see how the story turns people against Welsh speakers, welsh Nationalists perhaps, but then the sort of person who will be turned against all Welsh Nationalists rather than the usual mental minority probably won’t grasp the argument anyway.
In Wales over the past few decades, Plaid Cymru have been gaining ground at both local, national and UK level, and in most cases this has been at the expense of the Labour party. I don’t know if you’re at all interested in party politics, but mud slinging is very popular here in Wales, and a rather nasty trick Labour use is the race/language card by trying to scare people off from voting Plaid by claiming that Welsh speakers (and therefore Welsh nationalists) all hate English people and non-Welsh speaking, and if you ever voted for them they’ll take power, they’ll eat your babies - I may have made the last bit up.
Sounds mad doesn’t it, but it actually work. Not everyone is as clever as you and able to distinguish between a mentalist and an average Joe.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time and effort of writing the second post in response to comments you received.
That makes sense, you’ll have to forgive me Griff, I’ve been getting quite a lot of odd comments recently, most of it quite cleverly crafted spam, and it’s made me a bit suspicious. It’s nice to know you’re all real people and not robots after all.
I can see why you think the idea of non-Welsh speakers thinking other non-Welsh speakers aren’t Welsh doesn’t fit, but I’ve only read the news article and haven’t heard the owners of the horse speak. That is to say, I’m perfectly willing to accept that someone with a broad Welsh accent could think someone with a particularly faint accent was, in fact, English. For example, I have a friend who lives in Glasgow, he’s always lived in Glasgow, but his accent is almost undetectable and occasionally he gets grief for ‘being an English bastard.’ In this case I agree, it might be stretching things a bit, but it is feasible, if not the conclusion you’d jump to unless you know for a fact that those responsible are dribbling idiots. I find that they often are.
Anyway, I think it’s more probable that your first theory is the case; it’s the sort of petty minded shite you get with local disputes after all.
I can see where you’re coming from with the idea that the owner hurt the horse and is trying to cover it up, and the example of the pub makes sense, but, I don’t know, it just doesn’t feel right. There’s nothing to gain from it and it’s only going draw more attention to the issue which, presumably, is the opposite of what they’d want.
Not really having any real experience of the whole English/Welsh-speaking divide, or indeed Welsh politics and the whole, seemingly ridiculous, enmity between the nations, I can’t really comment on the idea that someone would want to drum up hatred between the two camps other than that ask why? Then again, I wasn’t aware that the language divide was such an important issue in Welsh politics, so that’s probably just my naïveté showing.
Sorry Rhys, I didn’t see your comment until I’d already replied but, as I’ve already said, it’s nice to know you’re real and not surreptitiously trying to sell me Viagra. I’m going to skip the online translation stuff if that’s ok because I’ve already posted about that, paranoia and so on
Anyway, the distinction between speaking Welsh and being a Welsh nationalist is, I hope, obvious to everyone. However, I can understand the concern and the desire not to be tarred with the brush intended for nutters, I realise that this is often not the case, people do like broad strokes after all.
I frequently grumble that the nation is becoming ever more dull-witted so I suppose I should have considered the possibility that stories like this one reflect badly on the whole, but it’s generally not how my mind works unless prompted. I generally assume that everyone thinks in a similar way to me.
You’ve got me on the perception of Welsh nationalism as being anti-English, I’ve said as much in my previous comment and, to be honest, you’re right. The pervading attitude is that it’s just the Taff’s being bitter because, well, because of everything. Coverage, as you say, is very thin on the ground. Then again, the media hasn’t really been applying itself for ages now so it’s hardly surprising.
As I said previously, I sometimes get the impression that the sentiment behind devolution is anti-English, if only because I don’t view us as England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, I just think of us as the UK and don’t really see the need or understand the desire to split it up. I suppose I might if I’d ever heard the sentiment reversed, but I haven’t. There’s very little (I doubt any) talk of England casting off the other three and looking solely after itself.
The argument for a group of people seeking control over their own destiny cuts both ways. You could argue that the English already do, I suppose, but that’d be neutering the point about non-bias somewhat. Anyway, whether the whole prospect is economically viable is indeed, another matter.
I think I’ve opened a can of worms here, haven’t I? Ah well, too late now.
I was aware that Plaid Cymru has been making gains at the polls for a fair few years now, I didn’t realise that tactics centred on xenophobia were employed though. I mean, it makes sense and doesn’t surprise me in the least, but it seems rather, well, rather childish, you’d hope for better from our potential representatives. Then again, it is politics, something I long ago gave up on as a waste of time, one shower of bastards or another, nothing much changes, and your babies still get eaten.
By the way, the url you gave for your blog doesn’t work, post it again and I’ll bung it on the blogroll.
Then again, it is politics, something I long ago gave up on as a waste of time, one shower of bastards or another, nothing much changes
Amen to that, but if I can bore with politics for a teeny weeny bit longer and then I’ll stop harassing you I promise:
You will probably be hearing quite a lot about independence (or devolution at the very least) for England in the future I’m sure, as the devolution process so far has been ballsed up good and proper, with Scotland, Wales and England all having varying degrees of law-making powers - it wasn’t well thought out at all!
Many people are unhappy that Scottish and Welsh MP’s decide on English matters like health and education, but English MP’s have no say on same issues in Scotland. There’s also the small problem of the Tories actually getting more votes than Labour in England during the last General Election, yet still ended up with less seats. Apparently, Labour got a seat for every 22,000 votes on average, while Tories only managed a seat per 44,000 votes - a situation which can’t continue.
As things stand, it’s Welsh and Scottish Labour MP’s that hold the balance of power at Westminster when it comes to voting on contentious issues and the shit is going to hit the fan. It’s going to be messy
If you think this scenario has the possibility to be mildly entertaining, there’s some good blogs out there - they’re well written. Campaign for an English Parliament is a good start, although some of the comments are nasty, and dare I say borderline racist.
I am quite fat fingered, my URL is http://www.smilingunderbuses.blogspot.com, but please don’t feel obliged to add to your blogroll.
Aaargh, it’s
http://www.smilingunderbuses.blogspot.com